You know, it does sound crazy that a church would be giving away an assault rifle and I do think it is irresponsible on their part. But, Levi had one when he was 16. We all like guns, like to target shoot and the AR15 is a great gun for that. Levi spent hours setting up targets and figuring out how to align his gun for distance and wind speed. Guns were just a fun hobby for Levi for a long time. Seth owns a shotgun and he does shoot a varmit ever once in a while. I don't think that is crazy.
I am not anti-gun. My dad taught me to shoot when I was 7 or 8. I've shot several different kinds of automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Don't hunt much any more, but I've been several times and got a doe once, which I ate.
The spooky thing about WHBC is the way they like to parade around in military fatigues, actively protest govt foreign policy - they even took busloads of teens down to the Bush ranch in TX to protest turning over the West Bank to the Palestinians, and Vineyard did an interview in Israel about that time telling President Bush to go to hell - and they have a boot camp at their campgrounds every year reminiscent of an Al-Quaida terrorist camp.
I thought of Al-Quaida when I saw the scrawny little boy at target practice with Jim Vineyard standing next to him. It's not just the guns, it's not just the fact that they're giving guns away at church, it's not just the fact that they spent $800 for a gun instead of feeding the poor, healing the sick, etc. It's the inflamatory rhetoric combined with the militant theme, and the hatred that is fostered in the name of God.
Another fear is the deep resentment that is stirred up in many of their teens against the school and church. CV and Cheri can tell you...a lot of those kids HATE that school/church and can't wait to get out. But they're trapped.
I think if you want to get a gun for your children and you teach them how to use it and you are responsible for them and it, then that's the way you raise your family and that's fine. I like guns, I don't own any but that's just a matter of opportunity at this time.
However, I think the context of this giveaway is just wrong. If a church wants to have a revival meeting for teenagers, do that. If they want to have a military training camp, then do that.
Secondly, I think it puts the church at a huge risk. What if the kid they give this gun to commits a crime with it? I can see a jury finding the church complicit in arming a teenager and even (remember, I went to this church so I can speak with some authority here) possibly giving them the notion that shooting an abortion doctor or a homosexual would not be the worst thing in the world. Not all teenagers are entirely able to discern where the line of demarkation between rhetoric and command is, and when I went there they showed the teenage student body very graphic abortion movies.
Also, I did personally know one young man who attended that church, whose father was an associate pastor of that church who committed suicide by firearm.
Oh, I totally agree with you guys on how crazy it is for them to be doing this and to me what was scary is that the only reason they canceled it was because it became a media issue. They said they had done it before and I am sure they will do it again.
Seeker, that is really frightening. Not just about the gun, but what you said about the training camp and parading around in fatigues, etc....... It's like they are training up their own little militia to violently overthrow the government or something. Scary.
Now they're trying to spin it into a 2nd Amendment, persecution issue!
Here's a ltr The Pastor has been sending out:
Dear DR. SHARP:
Bryan , as I write these lines, there are something like 627 young people here for our 25th Annual Youth Conference with Dr. Terry Anglea, Dr. Dan Woodward, Dr. Cecil Ballard, Dr. Scott Hanks, Dr. Rick Dawson, Jon Booth, and Mrs. Francie Taylor plus our Pastor, Dr. Tom Vineyard, and staff members speaking to them.
As I�ve already told you, something happened last Friday, which (for people of our Second Amendment persuasion like you and I), I think that I need to alert you (AND ANY OTHER 2ND AMENDMENT PASTOR) to so that you (AND THEY) can throw your �rock into the water� causing the appropriate �waves� regarding our Second Amendment Rights. Bryan, KOCO Channel 5 TV, the Local ABC outlet, aired the following segment on their Friday News cast. Monday I told Dr. Tom Vineyard, our son and pastor, that the issue is not Windsor Hills Baptist Church , Dr. Ross, Tom, nor I. The issue is our Second Amendment Rights. The people who did this on Channel 5 are probably pretty good folks, but they bite into the philosophy that comes down from the Politically Correct -Addled National News Scene. The Politically Correct-Addled philosophy thinks that Christians ought not to have guns, nor Christians should not be teaching their young to use guns. Those locally who aired this story, probably, when they know the whole truth, more than likely will admit their error, and try to do the right thing.
Here is copy from KOCO�s Web Site of what Jordan Williams and Jessica Schambach put on the air last Friday evening, with much fanfare at 5:00, 6:00, 6:30, 7:00, 8:00, and 9:00 in pushing the 10:00 news so folks would watch it:
FIRST, here is what they posted on their web site:
Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway POSTED: 10:38 pm CDT July 11, 2008 UPDATED: 8:56 am CDT July 12, 2008 OKLAHOMA CITY -- An Oklahoma church canceled a controversial gun giveaway for teenagers at a weekend youth conference.
(Vineyard then gives the interview from Channel 5 which has already been posted here.)
Now Bryan, what you, I, and all Christians across America best be realizing is the �Michael Dukakis, Jimmy Carter, George McGovern view of seeing the world through the prism of social theory and academia, where multi-culturalism is more important than Constitutional Rights,� will be out to question, �WHY WOULD THE CHURCH EVEN WANT TO DO THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE?�
IF WE SIT ON OUR DUFFS AND LET THEM, THEY�LL BE TAKING ALL OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS AWAY, JUST AS THESE �LOCAL YOKALS� ATTEMPTED IN THIS NEWS STORY.
AFTER, BRYAN , I was told about this, I told Tom, �I will buy the gun and give it away just as we�ve done in the past.� Therefore, he, Dr. Finn, and I went to H & H Gun Range , and talked with Miles the owner. Because the Game Wardens were coming out to teach �shot gunning,� we decided to give away a Remington Model 1187 with extension magazine, to whomever won the shooting. A young fellow from Dr. Danny Dodson�s church won the Oklahoma Game Warden supervised �shooting event� and will have the shotgun shipped to the Gun Dealer of his choice so that he can pick it up!
Then, here is a copy of a letter Dr. Tom Vineyard sent to Jordan Williams and Jessica Schambach Tuesday morning.
Mr. Jordan Williams Ms. Jessica Schambach KOCO
Dear Mr. Williams and Ms. Schambach,
I would like to extend an invitation to both of you to attend the activities of our 25th Annual Youth Conference that will be held today out at our camp just north of Loyal.
You can see for yourselves, first hand, all that is involved in the gun giveaway. I will allow you to interview some of the teens attending the conference, their pastors and youth directors, our staff, and those in charge over the shooting competition.
Last Friday evening, you passed judgment on us without getting all of the facts. I believe the word that you used, Mr. Williams, was �ludicrous.� Before beginning to laugh, you need to get the whole story. Any good journalist would have done that.
As you closed your report, Ms. Schambach, you asked, �What do they think they are doing?�
Well, I invite you to come and see.
Have either of you ever been the victim of a violent crime? My family and I have. I want my children to know how to defend themselves if it were to ever happen again. I want them, the other children in our church, and as many other law abiding citizens as possible to also be educated and to know how to safely defend themselves and their families.
I am sure that the other local TV journalists/celebrities such as Linda Cavanaugh, Cherokee Ballard, or others, who have possibly been the victims of stalkers, can appreciate the right to defend themselves and their families. I am sure that they would agree that properly educating people about firearm safety and use is the right thing to do. (I will be sending this letter to the other local television stations so that they can attend today as well, by the way.)
Passing legislation or running inaccurate news reports to keep people from having guns is not going to stop criminals from having guns and committing crimes.
My family and I lived for twelve years in a country in Africa where it was illegal to own or possess a gun. That did not keep five men with guns from breaking into our home, robbing us, and almost killing me.
The shooting competition will begin today just after lunch. I invite you to join us at noon for a bite to eat before hand and see for yourselves what �we think we are doing.�
Please be sure to ask for me when you arrive.
Pastor Tom Vineyard Windsor Hills Baptist Church
Following is a letter which I then sent to KOCO, with pictures attached:
Mr. Jordan Williams Ms. Jessica Schambach KOCO
Dear Mr. Williams and Ms. Jessica Schambach:
KOCO Television owes Windsor Hills Baptist Church equal time on the air for your �ludicrous� story of last Friday Night nailing this church for teaching youngsters on how to use firearms as for the guarantee of the 2nd Amendment right of the US Constitution � which was upheld by the Supreme Court recently in the Washington DC case.
Attached you will find pictures of Dr. Tom Vineyard�s head after 5 thugs came into his home and robbed him. They fractured his skull and knocked a hole in his head the size of a half-dollar
In addition, please see the copy of the story of a Plattsburgh, New York, school teacher, Mr. Aikens, who took 17 youngsters around the age of 11 after sending them home to get their muskets which their families taught them how to use.
Again, as per Pastor Tom Vineyard�s letter to you this morning I invite you to come up and see the shooting competition just after lunch. Oklahoma State Game Rangers will be there to supervise everything.
We are also inviting Linda Cavanaugh, Cherokee Ballard, and other TV personalities to come see what KOCO �ignorantly� calls �ludicrous.�
Remaining sincerely and gratefully a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Jim Vineyard
JAV/kt
Bryan, take care of yourself, and be sure to pray for me as I leave Friday for Israel as my feet still are a real problem.
10 comments:
I hope that reason prevails here. Amazing how they threw Jim Vineyard under the bus at the end!
Nope, not our idea, just old KOOK DAD!
riiiiight
CNN had picked up the story for a few hours as a link through, but It's gone now.
You know, it does sound crazy that a church would be giving away an assault rifle and I do think it is irresponsible on their part. But, Levi had one when he was 16. We all like guns, like to target shoot and the AR15 is a great gun for that. Levi spent hours setting up targets and figuring out how to align his gun for distance and wind speed. Guns were just a fun hobby for Levi for a long time.
Seth owns a shotgun and he does shoot a varmit ever once in a while.
I don't think that is crazy.
I am not anti-gun. My dad taught me to shoot when I was 7 or 8. I've shot several different kinds of automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Don't hunt much any more, but I've been several times and got a doe once, which I ate.
The spooky thing about WHBC is the way they like to parade around in military fatigues, actively protest govt foreign policy - they even took busloads of teens down to the Bush ranch in TX to protest turning over the West Bank to the Palestinians, and Vineyard did an interview in Israel about that time telling President Bush to go to hell - and they have a boot camp at their campgrounds every year reminiscent of an Al-Quaida terrorist camp.
I thought of Al-Quaida when I saw the scrawny little boy at target practice with Jim Vineyard standing next to him. It's not just the guns, it's not just the fact that they're giving guns away at church, it's not just the fact that they spent $800 for a gun instead of feeding the poor, healing the sick, etc. It's the inflamatory rhetoric combined with the militant theme, and the hatred that is fostered in the name of God.
Another fear is the deep resentment that is stirred up in many of their teens against the school and church. CV and Cheri can tell you...a lot of those kids HATE that school/church and can't wait to get out. But they're trapped.
I think if you want to get a gun for your children and you teach them how to use it and you are responsible for them and it, then that's the way you raise your family and that's fine. I like guns, I don't own any but that's just a matter of opportunity at this time.
However, I think the context of this giveaway is just wrong. If a church wants to have a revival meeting for teenagers, do that. If they want to have a military training camp, then do that.
Secondly, I think it puts the church at a huge risk. What if the kid they give this gun to commits a crime with it? I can see a jury finding the church complicit in arming a teenager and even (remember, I went to this church so I can speak with some authority here) possibly giving them the notion that shooting an abortion doctor or a homosexual would not be the worst thing in the world. Not all teenagers are entirely able to discern where the line of demarkation between rhetoric and command is, and when I went there they showed the teenage student body very graphic abortion movies.
Also, I did personally know one young man who attended that church, whose father was an associate pastor of that church who committed suicide by firearm.
Yes, there is a LOT of violent rhetoric regarding homosexuals and abortionists. I can attest to that.
Oh, I totally agree with you guys on how crazy it is for them to be doing this and to me what was scary is that the only reason they canceled it was because it became a media issue. They said they had done it before and I am sure they will do it again.
Seeker, that is really frightening. Not just about the gun, but what you said about the training camp and parading around in fatigues, etc....... It's like they are training up their own little militia to violently overthrow the government or something. Scary.
Now they're trying to spin it into a 2nd Amendment, persecution issue!
Here's a ltr The Pastor has been sending out:
Dear DR. SHARP:
Bryan , as I write these lines, there are something like 627 young people here for our 25th Annual Youth Conference with Dr. Terry Anglea, Dr. Dan Woodward, Dr. Cecil Ballard, Dr. Scott Hanks, Dr. Rick Dawson, Jon Booth, and Mrs. Francie Taylor plus our Pastor, Dr. Tom Vineyard, and staff members speaking to them.
As I�ve already told you, something happened last Friday, which (for people of our Second Amendment persuasion like you and I), I think that I need to alert you (AND ANY OTHER 2ND AMENDMENT PASTOR) to so that you (AND THEY) can throw your �rock into the water� causing the appropriate �waves� regarding our Second Amendment Rights.
Bryan, KOCO Channel 5 TV, the Local ABC outlet, aired the following segment on their Friday News cast. Monday I told Dr. Tom Vineyard, our son and pastor, that the issue is not Windsor Hills Baptist Church , Dr. Ross, Tom, nor I. The issue is our Second Amendment Rights. The people who did this on Channel 5 are probably pretty good folks, but they bite into the philosophy that comes down from the Politically Correct -Addled National News Scene. The Politically Correct-Addled philosophy thinks that Christians ought not to have guns, nor Christians should not be teaching their young to use guns. Those locally who aired this story, probably, when they know the whole truth, more than likely will admit their error, and try to do the right thing.
Here is copy from KOCO�s Web Site of what Jordan Williams and Jessica Schambach put on the air last Friday evening, with much fanfare at 5:00, 6:00, 6:30, 7:00, 8:00, and 9:00 in pushing the 10:00 news so folks would watch it:
FIRST, here is what they posted on their web site:
Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway
POSTED: 10:38 pm CDT July 11, 2008
UPDATED: 8:56 am CDT July 12, 2008
OKLAHOMA CITY -- An Oklahoma church canceled a controversial gun giveaway for teenagers at a weekend youth conference.
(Vineyard then gives the interview from Channel 5 which has already been posted here.)
Now Bryan, what you, I, and all Christians across America best be realizing is the �Michael Dukakis, Jimmy Carter, George McGovern view of seeing the world through the prism of social theory and academia, where multi-culturalism is more important than Constitutional Rights,� will be out to question, �WHY WOULD THE CHURCH EVEN WANT TO DO THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE?�
IF WE SIT ON OUR DUFFS AND LET THEM, THEY�LL BE TAKING ALL OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS AWAY, JUST AS THESE �LOCAL YOKALS� ATTEMPTED IN THIS NEWS STORY.
AFTER, BRYAN , I was told about this, I told Tom, �I will buy the gun and give it away just as we�ve done in the past.� Therefore, he, Dr. Finn, and I went to H & H Gun Range , and talked with Miles the owner. Because the Game Wardens were coming out to teach �shot gunning,� we decided to give away a Remington Model 1187 with extension magazine, to whomever won the shooting. A young fellow from Dr. Danny Dodson�s church won the Oklahoma Game Warden supervised �shooting event� and will have the shotgun shipped to the Gun Dealer of his choice so that he can pick it up!
Then, here is a copy of a letter Dr. Tom Vineyard sent to Jordan Williams and Jessica Schambach Tuesday morning.
Mr. Jordan Williams
Ms. Jessica Schambach
KOCO
Dear Mr. Williams and Ms. Schambach,
I would like to extend an invitation to both of you to attend the activities of our 25th Annual Youth Conference that will be held today out at our camp just north of Loyal.
You can see for yourselves, first hand, all that is involved in the gun giveaway. I will allow you to interview some of the teens attending the conference, their pastors and youth directors, our staff, and those in charge over the shooting competition.
Last Friday evening, you passed judgment on us without getting all of the facts. I believe the word that you used, Mr. Williams, was �ludicrous.� Before beginning to laugh, you need to get the whole story. Any good journalist would have done that.
As you closed your report, Ms. Schambach, you asked, �What do they think they are doing?�
Well, I invite you to come and see.
Have either of you ever been the victim of a violent crime? My family and I have. I want my children to know how to defend themselves if it were to ever happen again. I want them, the other children in our church, and as many other law abiding citizens as possible to also be educated and to know how to safely defend themselves and their families.
I am sure that the other local TV journalists/celebrities such as Linda Cavanaugh, Cherokee Ballard, or others, who have possibly been the victims of stalkers, can appreciate the right to defend themselves and their families. I am sure that they would agree that properly educating people about firearm safety and use is the right thing to do. (I will be sending this letter to the other local television stations so that they can attend today as well, by the way.)
Passing legislation or running inaccurate news reports to keep people from having guns is not going to stop criminals from having guns and committing crimes.
My family and I lived for twelve years in a country in Africa where it was illegal to own or possess a gun. That did not keep five men with guns from breaking into our home, robbing us, and almost killing me.
The shooting competition will begin today just after lunch. I invite you to join us at noon for a bite to eat before hand and see for yourselves what �we think we are doing.�
Please be sure to ask for me when you arrive.
Pastor Tom Vineyard
Windsor Hills Baptist Church
Following is a letter which I then sent to KOCO, with pictures attached:
Mr. Jordan Williams
Ms. Jessica Schambach
KOCO
Dear Mr. Williams and Ms. Jessica Schambach:
KOCO Television owes Windsor Hills Baptist Church equal time on the air for your �ludicrous� story of last Friday Night nailing this church for teaching youngsters on how to use firearms as for the guarantee of the 2nd Amendment right of the US Constitution � which was upheld by the Supreme Court recently in the Washington DC case.
Attached you will find pictures of Dr. Tom Vineyard�s head after 5 thugs came into his home and robbed him. They fractured his skull and knocked a hole in his head the size of a half-dollar
In addition, please see the copy of the story of a Plattsburgh, New York, school teacher, Mr. Aikens, who took 17 youngsters around the age of 11 after sending them home to get their muskets which their families taught them how to use.
Again, as per Pastor Tom Vineyard�s letter to you this morning I invite you to come up and see the shooting competition just after lunch. Oklahoma State Game Rangers will be there to supervise everything.
We are also inviting Linda Cavanaugh, Cherokee Ballard, and other TV personalities to come see what KOCO �ignorantly� calls �ludicrous.�
Remaining sincerely and gratefully a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Jim Vineyard
JAV/kt
Bryan, take care of yourself, and be sure to pray for me as I leave Friday for Israel as my feet still are a real problem.
I am sincerely, your friend and servant,
JIM VINEYARD
JAV/kt
What kooks!
If they'd have had a gun in africa, they would have shot him
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